A New Pragamatism-Locating the Personal in the Moral
This first major post should give you some background about me, my reasoning process, and my moral reasoning. NOTE: I have not EDITED yet
What is Morality?
An ethnographer--a scholar who writes "thick description" accounts of different cultures-- entering a new field site will soon learn that his informants--those who provide an ethnographer with information through conversation, by being observed, or through written correspondence--express their ideas of appropriate and inappropriate behavior with a variety of judgments and justifications. Sometimes these judgments will be of the ethnographer himself, as when I was told in no uncertain terms to "get it right" by a friendly but cautious, even suspicious, elder. At other times, the informant will be evaluating the behavior of someone who shares his cultural background--as when a middle aged man I was talking to complained about a growing generation gap.
What were the signs of this gap? 1) His teenage son wouldn't mow the lawn when asked, 2) kids and teenagers were text-messaging instead of sitting quietly and listening to the conversations of their elders, 3) young people were expressing growing doubts about the leadership of their community and about the effectiveness of community values in allowing them to lead good lives. 1, 2, and 3 were all situations used to evaluate "the generation gap" but each was situated in very different contexts. Generally, 1 was personal, tied, among other things, to the son's resentment as his father's divorce. 2 was social. 3 was philosophical/political.
Each of my informant's judgments, however, could fall under the rubric of "morality." Indeed, my informants used a term very similar to our term 'morality.' This term referred to behaviors that were in accordance with the will of the ancestors, in balance with the natural environment (which included "spiritual" aspects of that environment), and in balance with the human world of society, genealogy, and family.
What then, is the nature of "morality?" What distinguishes "morality" from "law" or "custom"? In many European cultures, morality has spiritual sanction. Breaking a moral rule is believed to cause massive disruption at a cosmological/social/and perhaps personal level. We avoid breaking the law simply because we fear certain, specific punishments. We avoid breaking moral rules because we fear more general, and more fundamental (whatever that means), consequences. As children, for example, moral rules may involve fighting, lying, stealing, being disobedient. Who can't remember with fresh guilt some deed of little consequence committed when one was a child? As adults we may believe in new rules and actively violate ones that shamed us when we were children, realizing that our childish impressions of the consequences of violating these rules were exaggerated.
If our perception of the morality of certain behaviors is subject to reevaluation, and if we judge a behavior to be moral because it of great consequence, then what leads us to consider a behavior to be of great consequence? Further, because our use of the term 'moral' does not indicate whether an actions is "good" or "evil," how does a person distinguish between the two?
The next section argues that this process is always personal, no matter whether the person believes in an omnibenevolent (benevolent in all ways) deity, a harmonious universe, or just that person's self.
Evaluating Consequence: Shifting Desires and Data Processing
Some have argued that forces which are named "good" and "evil" are natural to the universe, objective properties of behaviors that are perceived by persons to a greater or less degree. Persons, and even deities, then act either to encourage good, to encourage evil, or to maintain a somehow necessary balance between the two. This perspective sometimes includes a natural balance between good and evil maintained by impersonal forces (such as karma).
Considering this perspective, I ask two questions: 1) How would one prove the existence of objective moral categories and 2) even if their existence could be proved, why would one choose to lead others to do good or evil?
I have no good answer to the first question. However, I do believe that the question matters. If we can determine that there are natural properties--like cool colors and warm colors, for example--that we may label "good" and "evil," then the promulgation of our knowledge of these categories will influence future decision making. At this point, however, I do not believe that such categories will be "discovered." While cool colors and warm colors, arguably, would exist as wavelengths whether they were observed/measured or not, I do not see any evidence that good and evil are such properties. Instead--with some consistency across cultures but also great variation--good and evil, right and wrong, seem to be qualities assigned by the human observer and not natural properties at all.
How do humans come to assign these properties to behaviors?
Let us consider a situation where I am uncertain of the morality--the consequence, good and/or bad--of a behavior. I am currently looking for work and have considered seeking a job where I help a business by analyzing, for example its organizational culture and am hired to help make certain changes to that structure. This fairly common situation is, for me, a moral dilemma, one that pales in comparison to deciding whether to join a Human Terrain Team, but I’ll address that dilemma in my next post.
So how do I decide? Some of the decision process is invisible to me. Some, perhaps the majority, of the process takes place at a subconscious (although I prefer the term “unconscious”) level about which I can only speculate. However, from what I gather, the decision process goes something like this.
I think about a situation. Certain facts come into my mind, triggered by their relationship with other facts or by a mental model of what I need to consider. I'm not sure what these relationships or this model look like exactly, or if its even possible to put them into natural language. I don't even know quite where they comes from, although I can assume its a combination of experience and personal ways of doing things. Further, I gather a variety of other details, sometimes perceived as relevant sometimes not, in order to make sure I'm not missing anything obvious. Then I use these facts to make a decision. In this example, what are the facts?
As far as I can tell the facts are these--businesses want money. In today's hypercompetitive (to borrow a term from Robert Reich) economy, driven by investors and consumers, money is one of the main "products" of a business. Investors and consumers often drive corporations to make decisions which have consequentially harmful environmental, political, or social impacts. A corporation needs to exist in order to act responsibly, and it often cannot exist unless it makes decisions with these negative impacts.
Those anthropologists out there might think of another set of facts--in pursuit of money, businesses will go so far as to "deskill" anthropology, hiring agencies to seek informants, reducing ethnographic field data to a set of short forms, etc. Efforts to resist this trend will be partially successful, but only if they can demonstrate that these "deskilling" methods lead to obvious, demonstrable failures. Further, because of NDAs, anthropologists may sometimes find that information that would be valuable to future academic work is the property of their client or corporation and not to be published, although one hears amusing stories of corporations who want an NDA on the theories of Van Geneep and Victor Turner. However, in my mind, the only consequential harm that would result would be the "obvious, demonstrable failures" themselves.
So, now that I have some of the facts (and look how much explanation goes into trying to understand a twenty minute or less thought process), I've processed the information as well as I am able and now need to reach a moral conclusion. Moral arguments involve a) more formal reasoning, b) emotional awareness, c) an awareness of who I want to be--mentally, emotionally, socially, etc--after the decision is made and action taken.
My moral reasoning is often more formal. I do not assume that I have the "right answer" intuitively so I express the dilemma in different terms. Let's consider a few of my arguments. One is"if I gather the information, I'm not responsible for its use." There is an immediate objection--in the causal sense, I am partially responsible. However, I may not have great power to change the causal chain (or web of indeterministic and deterministic forces if you prefer) extending from information sharing to the business's decisions. Should the lack of power absolve me? I can't think of any arguments why it should. I chose to enter a situation where I lacked power to make sure others followed my moral code. However, maybe I'm not powerless, maybe I can present the information in such a way that I can make positive change. Would my actions be good enough to be justified, despite their being bad also?
This last argument raises a major moral question, the question of balance. Balance is one of the most difficult questions in anyone's moral philosophy. Lets take a few examples. In one situation, I harm someone but later make up for harming them by helping them in a way that erases or makes very small the effects of the initial harm. Does this mean that I can harm someone whenever I want, as long as I do the work to "make up for it." Well, asides from the risky assumption that I can "make up for it," I am tempted to say "no!" But why? Because a) I don't want others doing the same thing to me and b) because I exercise empathy. I don't like observing people in pain, so I go out of my way to avoid causing pain.
However, lets consider a situation where I need to do bad in order to do good, i.e. our original example. Here, it depends on how fundamentally consequential my actions are. If the harm I do is of little consequence, but the good I do is of great consequence. I'll commit to the good and acknowledge, but tolerate, the harm. In the organizational anthropologist working for a business example, having money and earning experience is important to me; it is of consequence. The harm that might result is of consequence also, but because I am, to a degree, an expendable actor in a harm-producing hyper-competitive system, why not work to do some good as part of that system? However, in order to truly say that my actions are good, those actions must go beyond mitigating harm and be of "good" consequence themselves.
But how do I come to perceive things to be of consequence, good or bad? At this point in the discussion, I'll use a very different, but common example. Imagine an omnibenevolent, omniscience, omnipotent deity. If good and bad are ascribed, not inherent, qualities, how does the deity decide what is good and what is bad?
I would suggest that even if this deity's ways are "mysterious"--as some would have us believe about their deity--the deity still makes personal moral decisions. I don't know what the "personality" of a deity looks like, but I do know that a conscious decision maker, if it can be said to have agency, must have a personality--some bases for its decisions. And, if the God is to be an proper object of worship (to use Bernard Gert's phrase), the bases for that decision has to be at least somehow accessible to us. We must have a reason to trust that God's good is something that we should seek, and God's bad something that we should avoid. In order to trust God, we must, to an extent, understand.
Which, of course, puts the onus back on us. I've argued that morality is not an inherent trait, but rather an ascribed one. Further, in asking whether we will ascribe moral labels to a behavior, our reasoning might clarify our thoughts, but it has to take into account our personality. A serial killer, for example, would not let empathy enter his moral reasoning. Indeed, the serial killer may find that the actions of greatest negative consequences are the ones that deprives him of victims. That is, of course, a simplification. A serial killer may have a socialized concept of morality that they enjoy flouting. But, remember, my definition of a moral action is not a "good" action, but rather one recognized to be of consequence.
In the next section, I explore how we influence one another's and our own personalities, data processing, and momentary desires in order to do "good."
Creating "Good" People: Personal Appeal and Power Politics
Although one basis of our moral decision making may be in biological response to stimuli, there are few parents who would argue that their children learned without guidance what appropriate and inappropriate behaviors were.
Instead, children require almost constant explanation and direction. The explanations are often fallacious or "dumbed-down," designed to modify behavior rather than to educate. The directions are often haphazard, intended to reduce disruptive and increase productive behaviors in the moment rather than to produce specific, complex behavioral responses. However, with a life time of this tutoring, combined with imitation, peer-correction, and personal reasoning, most children have a sense of the consequential and desires surrounding these consequences.
Sometimes, the child's sense of the consequential is challenged. Here a parent (or anyone else who desires to change the child's behavior) might use a normative argument, telling the child that "this is not the ways things are done." The normative response appeals to two impulses--the impulse to reason by imitation and the impulse not to offend those closest to you. Often, the appeal to the normative is enough to modify behavior. Sometimes, however, the urge to mimic may be undermined by an urge resist acculturation. At still other times their may be a conflict in expectations between the people closest to the child, and then a choice must be made.
If the normative arguments are insufficient, the person might try and influence the structure of a child's thought process, to teach the child the right way of looking at things. Here several types of cognitive-modification might be attempted. The child has refused to mimic the reasoning of their parent, so the parent might attempt to understand and to challenge the reasoning of the child.
It is probably impossible to understand another person's thought process in any specific detail. I have heard it argued that a computer scientist might be able to do it, and have read attempts, to take an example, by computer scientists to write the "program" by which a Kalahari San bushman applies linguistic terms. Even the computer scientists, however, would have trouble arguing that they are doing more than originating effective models for the thought process. Certainly, however, natural language might fail to do even that. Fortunately, however, humans do not rely purely on computer science and natural language to interpret information. Our brains are performing complex data processing that takes into accounts unconscious as well as conscious cues. These processes underly natural language, computer science, as well as visions from gods and ancestors. Attempting to map these process may be impossible, but we really don't have to understand them in such detail.
Instead, the parent tries, by whatever means available, to do several things to the child's brain. One of the most important of the parent's goals will be to focus the child's attention on several aspects of the situation and on how those aspects fit together. If the child ignores or does not give proper weight to certain facts, than the child will not realize their consequence. This process involves a presenting of facts, a presenting of potential relationships between facts as if they are facts, and emotional weighting.
The emotional weighting of certain facts and relationships between facts is a way of focusing or redirecting the child's attention. It can be accomplished by getting the child to mimic or react to the parent's emotions. It can by manipulating the child to try and feel something by making it unpleasant for them not to--perhaps by appealing to their pride, or to their guilt, or by indicating that you will no longer think well of them and withhold love or change your relationship with them in some other fundamental way. Whatever works--and is moral (?).
These two stages--reworking a person's attention to the world and manipulating their emotional response to that world are, I believe, the foundations of shared morality.
There is another foundation however--one in which we manipulate what data is present, both internally and externally, over the long term. If, for example, we realize that someone is developing a personality trait that we would like to see more of, we can encourage that by, say, putting them in situations that they desire for other reasons, but which bring will probably bring that personality trait to the fore. I wouldn't call this form of manipulation a foundation of shared morality. In the next section, I discuss it, however, as a form of moral behavior that underlies what I will discuss as a "New Pragmatism."
The "New" Pragmatism--Using the Personal to Establish Common Standards
My argument so far has been that the morality of a behavior is how consequential it is considered. Further, the evaluation that the consequence of a behavior is good or evil is inherently personal. If this evaluation is personal, than the only way to convince other people to do good is to manipulate them to see the world the way we see it and to feel about it the way we feel it. This manipulation may be subtle or not, and we may sometimes accept only token agreement as long as certain actions are accomplished.
Until now, however, the assumption has been that we want people to become moral beings like ourselves. In those case where we accept token agreement, however, we are more concerned with the action than the person's motivation. We attempt to change their behavior because it is consequential, and we feel it must be changed. We don't necessarily even care if they become "like us" or not. It may be impossible to make them like us. It may even be, depending on the situation, inconsequential.
Personally, I find that the bulk of people in this world will never be "like me." Our dissimilarities of personality, personal experience, and current environment are sometimes consequential. Obvious examples of potentially consequential people are the ranks of islamo-fascists and christo-fascists around the world. Remember, I am an empathetic person, and I find even actions done to others to be consequential, so even if I am never personally the victim of the supporter of Islamic or Christian totalitarians, I do not simply shrug my shoulders and let them be.
However, because I recognize that all morality is personal morality, and that no personal morality can become universal unless all people become the same, I offer thoughts that may shape the paths of individual moralities without trying to specify the paths these moralities should take.
I argue that everyone should strive to bring out all of themselves in a way that they truly value. How many times have we seen people behaving completely irrationally because they chose emotion over reason or reason over emotion, rather than struggling to work with both the thinker and the feeler in themselves? Here, for example, someone who is personally very faithful to another human or a deity would have to seek a way to reconcile this faith with their rational capacity, even if the later is underdeveloped relative to the former. Make use, I suggest in religious terms, of all of the gifts god gives you.
Of course, some people might have a lot of trouble bringing out the underdeveloped parts of themselves--their capacity for empathy, for courage, for rationality, whatever. And some people might have trouble balancing the overdeveloped parts of themselves--the sadist, the hypercompetitive CEO, the hyper-anxious coward, whatever. But I feel that I can better cooperate with someone who is used to having to establish compromises between the various facets of their being than with someone who tends towards one extreme or another.
These compromises require struggle and even heroism. They also require acknowledging that the moral decisions that you make in the present may contradict ones that you will make in the future, because you are fundamentally still in development, and your personal development has become consequential.
Under this new system, the question of how will this action affect who I become is as important as the question of how this question will affect the universe. Who you are is consequential not only because valuing yourself fully makes some sense as a goal, but because who you become will influence what seems consequential to you, the future moral decision maker. If you're suddenly going to become more empathetic, the world can look very, very different.
The next section explores two markers of accomplishment in the "New Pragmatism"--purity and certainty.
Purity and Certainty--Managing Doubt
Believers in universal morality--rules that all people must follow or be killed/damned/personally tortured, etc--might object that they could never follow a philosophy where two desirable states, purity and certainty, were impossible. These states of "grace" after all, feel really good. They make sense within the context of a universal morality, where all you have to do is perceive yourself to be following all the rules, and deeply feel the satisfaction that this brings.
What would it take to feel personal purity in our system of personal morality? I think a person could come to consider themselves pure even though they acknowledge (following my ideas on balance) that even some of their consequential actions contributed to evil as well as good. They could not, however, feel pure, if they lived life in such a way that the evil was more consequential than the good. And, since different persons have a different sense of what is consequential, many could find themselves without the certainty necessary to make a judgment.
Holding off on our discussion of certainty for a minute, it should be mentioned that even if a judgment is reached that supports the perception of self-purity, this judgment may always be challenged. Also, as more of the self is brought-out, new emotions might redefine the consequential at such a rapid rate that nobody is stable in their judgments for a long enough period of time to feel pure. However, it seems to me that growth is usually slow and only in rare cases does the growth produce massive challenges to the old way of perceiving and judging behaviors.
Because of this self-questioning (as one actively pursues growth), however, certainty is always under threat. However, we can turn to other persons, engaging in similar struggles and even supporting us in our struggles (like parents, for example), and at least seek inter-subjective agreement. Looking towards others who are similar in certain ways to ourselves, we may receive the intellectual support for our own perspectives. From this inter-subjective agreement can come a personal certainty that is difficult to reach in intellectual isolation.
Of course, they may be wrong to, but that is why grace is fleeting.
Well, that's all for now, except for some minor edits. I know its rushed. I know sentences are a little overlong. I know that it may have massive gaps and confusions.
Leave comments and help me to have a little "certainty!"
Labels: anthropology, cognition, computation, culture, epistemology, ethic, ethical, ethics, ethnography, judgement, moral, morality, parenting, pragmatism, reasoning
32 Comments:
Ok, first, the necessary stylistic criticism. You're quite forthcoming about the fact that it hasn't been edited, and sometimes thinking through writing is good for its own sake (believe me, I've indulged in more than my fair share of that) so don't think of this as a general critique so much as a few suggestions to keep in mind for the next time you are writing.
Clarity is key. Forgive a personal prejudice of mine, but it seems like Anthropologists just tend to suck at communicating what they are trying to say. Not saying that Economists don't have their jargon as well, but in general the humanities seem to have become bogged down in shit prose. Yours is nowhere so far gone, but I beg of you, take on clarity of writing as if it were a personal mission. Read books by William Zinsser and write regularly so as to keep in practice.
For instance, I have only a vague idea of what exactly the moral dilemma is, in your hypothetical work situation. It's pretty crucial to the argument you're making, so if you were going to look for a place to begin reworking, I would suggest starting there.
Now, to the good stuff--the substance.
I would argue that morality has nothing to do with consequences. What morality pertains to is personal character. We judge a person's actions only in so much as it is a reflection of more general tendencies; if they were abnormally generous or callous or frivolous in a manner they had never been before and never again are afterwards, then that one instance is irrelevant. It is kept in mind only in as much as we believe it may be a hint of something more general.
Morality is never formal. Nor is it ever taught by parents, however much they or others may wish to believe it is. Truly it is born from that strange interaction between the biological beast and the social circumstances, but it is never "impressed" by any intentional force.
A parent in America may wish to "teach" their child respect, and a parent in China may also state the same intentions, but the meaning that the word is given the child can only derive from experience (how the parents themselves behave) and when they decide to make use of that knowledge, or if they do at all, is not something that can ever be impressed upon them externally.
I find it wonderful that you should take up this topic, and put it into writing, and show it to me--just as I have set out on a personal crusade against rationalism and all its bastard sons like the categorical imperative. I hope to enjoy long and fruitful debates with you on the subject from now on :)
Stylistic critique accepted!
However, at this point I am talking to other anthropologists as much as to people from other disciplines.
As for substance--are you sure we're not just using different terms? I start with a premise that, world-wide, moralities tend to be concerned with consequential actions, though what we define as consequential varies and he arrive at these definitions is perhaps equally varied.
I can accept your premise that moralities are also concerned with character, but I think that concepts of good and bad people are generally linked to what good and people will do, rather than who they are.
At the same time, I am a consequentialist, so I did write from bias that may well be eliminated in the next round of editing.
Anyway, it's a new blog, and it's good to have something to post :)
I start with a premise that, world-wide, moralities tend to be concerned with consequential actions, though what we define as consequential varies and he arrive at these definitions is perhaps equally varied.
This is not at all about definitions. I merely think that you are wrong.
First of all, a morality cannot be "concerned" with anything. Only people can be concerned. And for the most part, what they are concerned with is other people. Actions do not exist in a void; they cannot be judged in and of themselves. A moral judgment is necessarily a judgment of character. Stalin was not evil because he killed millions. He was evil, and therefore it was a tragedy that a man like him managed to obtain as much power over as many people as he did.
If a friend who rarely drinks gets drunk, it is a matter of some amusement. If a friend who has a history of alcoholism gets drunk, it is a matter of some concern. Same action, different characters.
If someone is terrified that they are about to be discovered in something they are ashamed of, and commits murder, they are considered weak and unstable. If someone commits murder because they want to terrify people into submission, they are considered tyrannical and evil. Same action, different moral judgements.
No value judgment can be derived from any action in and of itself. Character always provides the context; or rather, actions are judged in as much as they shed light on character.
But yes, it's a new blog, and I'm happy to see you feeling free to write about the things that interest you :) I think you'll be surprised by how much traffic these sorts of posts pull, over time (in the long run my posts on finite mathematics have drawn more google searches than a plethora of easier reads).
More importantly, having a place to think through writing can be the biggest blessing of all.
You're wrong, but so am I.
It's all context. Sometimes we focus on the results of the personality trait- as when we allow ourselves to feel good about a person that might have, say, homicidal rages, but never acts on them and has other redeeming qualities (i.e. one of my best friends).
Sometimes its the traits themselves--we're more comfortable with someone who rages than, say, a pedophile, even if the pedophile has no intention of ever sleeping with children, and even if the pedophile lives in a fantasy world where he is helping children instead of harming them. When it comes to our kids, a threat is a threat is a threat.
Sometimes its the cosequences--we may rail against stupidity but we'll tolerate it, even find in endearing, when the person isn't making destructive decisions.
As humans, we have sought to justify many of our moral systems by talking or writing about consequences. But we have just as frequently talked or written about evil traits.
As humans who aren't just talking or writing about our moralities in order to justify them, but our instead living them, we do all of the above and more besides when making decisions.
Ultimately, I would counsel that it comes down to who we are and what we want, and if we're trying to make our decision making process more consistent by applying logic, we may want to ask ourselves why we consistently condemn or praise certain traits and why we consistently condemn or praise certain behaviors and/or the consequences of these behaviors.
I hope you can forgive my stubbornness, but I still believe you to be mistaken.
I don't think you can make a division between traits and their results or consequences.
To begin with, "results" and "consequences" seem to me to be entirely interchangeable terms. If we somehow were aware of a person's desire to do harm to others, and also observed that they did not, in fact, act upon it, then it would be their ability to restrain themselves from acting on certain impulses that we would find worthy of praise. In this case, people remained unharmed as a consequence of that ability.
Stupidity is such a blanket term, but let us suppose you have a person who would bring people to ruination if put in a position of leadership, not because of any defect of character, but simply out of lack of ability. They are terrible at managing a business, or dealing with people, or whatever. If they are in a position where they are doing no harm, either as a wage-worker or simply something in which the level of damage they could do is minimal and the amount of good they can do is offset by it, then we are happy with the circumstances. If the circumstances came about because they were aware of their own limitations, then we praise their ability to be honest with themselves when it comes to their shortcomings, because the consequence of this awareness is that they do people a lot less harm.
More to the point, we cannot praise a trait in itself because it is impossible to become aware of any trait without first observing its consequences. How would one find out that someone was a pedophile, exactly? It is not as though we can peer into their mind. Allow me to go into some of the possible scenarios in which we might be made aware of such a characteristic.
1. The person might have confided in us that they found children attractive. In this case, we may find their honesty worthy of praise, as we have just as a result become aware of something potentially dangerous about them. However, without some further reason to believe that they are, in fact, capable of staving off the temptation of such impulses, we may still choose to file them away as the sort of person you don't want to babysit your son.
2. We may have either gotten clues from how they behaved while children were around, or caught them looking at child pornography. In this case, we don't even have any reason to believe in their honesty, much less to believe that they would restrain themselves if given the opportunity to indulge in their disgusting desires.
3. They might have a history, or a public record (such as those of convincted sex offenders) in which case the only clues we have about their character is that they are both subject to certain desires and have yielded to them in the past.
I challenge you to present a scenario in which we can become aware of someone's character without first observing some consequences associated with it.
Oh, something to make explicit--I was using the term "morality " to refer to the more formal discussions of praised and condemned behaviors/traits/situations that a society encounters. The less formal thinking that goes on around morality should be explored as well. This thinking does tend to be less concerned with consequence on the big scale, and more concerned with what a person does or does not want to encounter in their life. Often, when judging people, we do condemn certain traits. But even then, we have to ask, why don't we like these traits? Is it innate? Have we been taught to dislike them? Why did people teach us to dislike them? Perhaps its because these traits sometimes lead to behaviors, and consequences, that we dislike? Perhaps not, I'd need to study it further.
I'm going to write this in a separate comment, as I feel it is distinct from the point I was making in the previous one.
Ultimately, I would counsel that it comes down to who we are and what we want, and if we're trying to make our decision making process more consistent by applying logic(...)
Question: what does it mean to make our decision process more consistent?
This goes to the heart of what I feel to be the folly of rationalism--the notion that we must reshape our behavior according to uniform logical principles.
I understand that you are taking on a softer form of this argument, by stating that it's an individual choice; "it comes down to who we are and what we want", and many of us may not want to make our decision making process consistent by applying logic, and that's ok too. It's just what you, and many others, believe you should do.
I would argue that regardless of what you or anyone may set out to do, it is impossible for you to reshape your decision making process at all, much less by applying logic.
Certainly there is a range of possible behavior that a given individual may end up exhibiting; variation biology has allowed to occur with regards to circumstance rather. Yet change in this area does not result from the acts of the Will, but rather from changes in perceptions as well as in one's feelings on the matters relevant to each decision.
The Will aside, logic is entirely impotent to alter the process. All that logic can afford us is approximations of reality, whether or not it leads to a changed decision as to what action to take, or whether we even believe in the truth of any particular approximation, is a process entirely independent of logic.
That is how the situation appears to me, though I may have misunderstood you. So I ask again, what exactly did you mean in the passage quoted above?
Ah, you commented rather quickly--this is in response to your second comment. If we want to talk about behaviors, than we can allow mental "behaviors," like desiring, etc. But we also can talk about consequences of behaviors that are separate from behaviors themselves. I give a charity money, that charity spends all of the money of overhead and their campaign for more money. The behavior is giving the money, the consequences include the charity having more money to spend.
Now, as for giving a moral evaluation of this situation, it all depends on who you are and how much time you have to think about it.
If you don't find it sensible to think of traits as separate from behaviors, than you might condemn, say, a class of behaviors which have certain traits in common, say . . . emotions that accompany an action. You could also define a trait as "a tendency to engage in certain behaviors in certain situations"
The key thing to clarify is that "consequences" are influenced by people beyond yourself.
Often, when judging people, we do condemn certain traits. But even then, we have to ask, why don't we like these traits? Is it innate? Have we been taught to dislike them? Why did people teach us to dislike them? Perhaps its because these traits sometimes lead to behaviors, and consequences, that we dislike?
I would say that some things are innate, while others--and the more formal discussions of which you speak in particular--are tailored by custom and what amounts to the same thing, tradition.
As to the "why" of the question, I think there are two parts to the answer.
First, traditions are not passed on for reasons that are logically justified in the minds of those passing them on. Just as biology has affected a mechanism by which certain traits are passed on regardless of the intentions of the organisms, so too in human culture are certain customs passed on for reasons independent of the individuals.
Second, the central problem of this issue, and any where you have interaction between individuals, is Asymmetric Information.
No human being can survive on his own. In Economics we love to talk about how no one person has enough knowledge to make even a pencil. In order to acquire the most basic commodities, we rely on countless others of whom we have no knowledge.
In more primitive circumstances, people have to figure out who can be relied upon. It is for this reason that we observe the actions that people take and attempt to gain an understanding of their character from it; we want to find out whether they are someone that we would want to keep around, or if they are someone who might do harm to us or those important to us.
This is no less true today in the most developed modern countries; the only difference is that in the past a mistaken judgment was far more likely to get you killed. You're in a lot more trouble if you're Neolithic man and your most trusted friend steals your food and abandons you than if you're an American businessman whose vice-president launders money and puts the company out of business.
Our feelings about other people's traits, in other words, comes from the fact that in every aspect of our lives we are dependent on other people. We concern ourselves with the consequences because in the end all that it means to have a "trait" is that putting someone in a particular situation repeatedly is likely to have the same or similar consequences most of the time.
The key thing to clarify is that "consequences" are influenced by people beyond yourself.
This is true, and no doubt we always take this into account. Nevertheless, the ability to take the influence of people beyond ourselves into account when we mark our decisions is also an important part of our character.
If someone gives to a charity that has done a lot of work we consider admirable, we may think highly of them. If, on the other hand, someone gives to a charity without much consideration for what the charity is or whether they will make good use of the money, we may consider them to be good at heart, but also foolish.
In all circumstances, the action of the individual is only given value with regards to what it contributes to something much larger; through its connection to others and its place among its traditions.
The ability to contribute something harmful or beneficial to that larger structure, as well as the actions one takes in the tiny fraction of that structure into which falls our personal experience, are all important traits to keep in mind when judging one's character.
I would qualify this to say that often times the larger, more general picture is less pertinent to our judgment than the more immediate and personal. This should make sense--people never really deal with big systems one-on-one, but the immediate and the personal is the substance of our daily lives.
On Logic-- I disagree that logic is impotent. Rather, it is my experience that logic is one of a set of tools by which we change our unconscious and conscious information-processing.
The unconscious influences conscious logic-using, but, in my experience, there is a definite feedback loop between conscious actions, including using logic, and the unconscious.
Sometimes, the results of our conscious logic-using can be introduced to our unconscious systems more actively--rituals, for example, often attempt this. Hypnosis would be another example.
Sometimes, I would guess, conscious logic-using and the unconscious interact in ways we don't notice and may not control.
As for "will"--I actually find that it works pretty well. I can, for example, ask for feelings of happiness, then wait for them to come. The key is not to try to control whatever unconscious processes are occuring to produce those feelings.
I don't why consciousness is necessary for humans to act as they do, but I find that it is not only the passive recipient of unconscious impulses, but is also an active partner in whatever makes human think, feel, and act as they do. Perhaps consciousness is the biproduct of certain processes and not of others, so all I'm really claiming is that those processes that we are conscious of play active roles. These roles are distinct from those played by unconscious processes, although they may certainly be dependent upon them.
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I can agree with you on trait recognition. However, I think the structure of our system of moral evaluations may vary considerably--beyond the need to predict beneficial or harmful behaviors in others. Indeed, one could argue that as the ability of people to contribute to our deaths is less and less on our minds, and less and less of a limiting factor on behaviors, other ways of evaluating behavior have taken over, operating in contrast and in concert with the original judgment mechanisms. Also, those original mechanisms may function differently in an environment where death is less of an issue.
Or, even if death is still a big issue, perhaps our ways of evaluating peoples behaviors are no longer adequate to avoid death in a modern society. I'm not making an argument with that last thought, just raising a question.
You have stated that it is your experience that conscious logic is a tool by which the unconscious can be influenced. I simply cannot see how such a mechanism would work; if you could explain it to me, please do, and if you could include solid examples, that would be best.
For my part, I see logic as simply a function of our imagination, disciplined to behave in a particular way. We take premises and derive conclusions from them, based upon what we imagine to be coherent within the system of formal analysis we have been provided with by tradition. This derivation often takes the form of if-then propositions.
How these propositions could influence us in the slightest, I fail to see. Let us use an example: "If I let go of this pencil, it will fall to the ground." There are all sorts of premises built into this statement; the most obvious being a particular conception of gravity.
Yet there exists no logically justifiable reason to believe a word of it. That the pencil will fall is not something that can be proven. I believe it for entirely involuntary reasons.
Belief is an entirely involuntary process, as are all emotional reactions. You state that you can call happiness at will, and I find that most dubious. To begin with, why do you not simply will yourself to be happy all of the time?
Secondly, even if you could conjure up any emotion on command, what would determine whether or not you decided to do just that? There would obviously be some reason why you would do it sometimes but not others, right?
Finally, on what basis do you believe you are able to do this? What exactly is the nature of your experience, and what are the limitations of this willpower of yours? Happiness is a vague concept at best. What of the feeling that is produced when you put your hand into an open flame, searing the flesh--can you produce that sensation by willpower alone, without resorting to actually burning yourself?
What of those emotional reactions that catch you by surprise; the sadness or joy you did not expect you would feel when you learned some piece of news or failed at some task or spent time with some person? Can your will exactly replicate those sensations, without actually experiencing them at all?
No, logic is and ought only to be the slave of the passions, presenting possible scenarios which we either respond to emotionally or do not.
As for the will, I don't think I can even provide a fair criticism until you clarify what exactly you understand the dichotomy between the conscious and the unconscious to be. The terminology has been around since Freud, and has acquired a prominent position in popular mythology, so I'm not going to pretend that I've gotten to the bottom of your particular take on it.
I can agree with you on trait recognition. However, I think the structure of our system of moral evaluations may vary considerably--beyond the need to predict beneficial or harmful behaviors in others.
Let me just add that when I say "beneficial" and "harmful" I'm not just talking in cynical, material terms. Someone may be beneficial to have around, in my sense of the word, if they often make us laugh and feel that life's challenges are more bearable. Conversely, they may be harmful if they have a melancholy disposition that brings you down, and makes it harder for you to enjoy even the little things you used to.
That said, I agree that there will be a shift in emphasis as our association with people becomes less and less a matter of immediate life or death. However, that shift will occur within the framework of character judgment that I have been describing.
What I mean is simply that whereas in the past we may have been willing to tolerate an unpleasant person if they were hard-working and reliable, now we may find that we do not have to in many circumstances. This is still a matter of the person's character, the margin of judgment has simply shifted.
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Certainly, I would argue that our conscious experience reflects things occurring on an unconscious level. However, I would also suggest that conscious actions may affect the unconscious world, although I can't for the life of me understand what consciousness is, so it's hard to detail the mechanism.
Or, perhaps, consciousness is simply the "visible" sign of sub-conscious processes, and all the processes that we are conscious of are simply the signs of something going on at the unconscious level that we don't know much about. Really, perhaps, consciousness is completely a biproduct, and all the substance is unconscious.
All of that put aside, there are several situations where our "conscious actions"--even if they are simply the byproduct of unconscious processes, create changes in our perceptions. A Pentecostal who prays so hard they hear Jesus. A less fervent Christian friend of mine who hears Jesus in prayer, telling her it will be all be okay, after her friends come down with AIDS. The people in the tribe that I worked with occasionally hearing the river or their ancestors--a "skill" that most of us will agree is learned.
I'm sure my own "summoning of happiness" or, as you prefer "a very positive feeling" relies on the unconscious because I'm not overrationalizing the process. I just ask and it happens. I discovered this when I was trying to figure out what "harmony" felt like after reading the word in a book. I asked to know, and the feeling I got in response struck me as the sort of thing that matched with the concept that I had of the meaning of the term 'harmony.'
Now, it may take a lot of effort to change your unconscious so as to produce spontaneously conscious behavior, but that's what people do when they a) practice anything b) get hypnotized, c) live life. After all, what is learning but a change in spontaneous mental response over time?
Now whether we know how to manipulate this learning process, and how much power we have over it, those are hard questions. I suggest practice as a first approach, and, if you're trying to get yourself to spontaneously either a) have the experience of reasoning or b) produce logically consistent conclusions, then I'd suggest practicing ALOT.
Not that we all want that. After all, the problem with relying on logic is that you assume that you a) know the premises, b) understand them enough to reason with them, and c) rely on logical systems which, in detail, are ussually mutually contradictory, as with axiomatic mathematical systems.
1)Without a clear idea of what conscious or unconscious processes are, by what logic can you conclude that the one is able to alter the other, or even that they exist at all?
2)Your prayer example shows exactly how absent logic is in people's beliefs--after all, you have irrationally assumed that the pentecostal does not hear Jesus, an argument I challenge you to justify on any grounds other than it is what you believe, logic be damned.
3)Forgive my prejudice, but talk of "manipulating" anything simply begs the question. Who is doing the manipulating? what is being manipulated? No, whether or not we change has more to do with who we were to begin with than with some sort of external, conscious being acting as a technician to the internal, unconscious being. For to change implies a desire to change, and desire implies motivation--what it is that motivates a particular person depends upon their character, but it is something, something that they react to. Likewise, you "summon" your pleasant feeling because you want to feel it, and you want to feel it because of something which motivates you to.
I think the problem here is the popular conscious/subconscious duality--and more significantly, the external/internal duality. We never react to anything external. The only thing we ever experience are perceptions, something internal to the mind. No logic is capable of establishing that those perceptions reflect an external reality; that we assume they do anyway merely demonstrates the powerlessness of logic to form belief.
To me, logic is a system that works out the relationship between premises so that we can make accurate predictions based on those premises. More in reply when I'm not at work.
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First of all, I hope that you're not having this comments e-mailed to you. I rarely have time to clarify what I'm saying, so I later go back and delete most of what I've said. Everything here is provided to stimulate your responses, not necessarily to clarify my own position. In general, however, I am defending the thesis that human beings reason and that reason affects their perceptions/beliefs through the learning process, of which reasoning is one small part. I take the duality of consciousness and unconsciousness as a premise because my experience seems to suggest it, just as I accept the premise of a physical external world instead of embracing solipsism or Berklian idealism. If you can give me reasons to surrender these premises, I will cease to use these premises in logical exercises and, perhaps, cease to react to the world as if these premises are true.
After all, it matters little if Jesus is talking to my friend or not, what matters is that, before actively practicing prayer, she did not have any oral experiences of Jesus. She changed her perceptions through actions, whether those actions were determined, not determined, or partially determined, by her past states is not something that I can investigate.
Well, whatever your purpose, I have certainly found this debate stimulating :)
I am defending the thesis that human beings reason and that reason affects their perceptions/beliefs through the learning process, of which reasoning is one small part.
Oh, well that I can agree with. It's just a matter of how it affects them.
Reason will never provide you with a "should" or "ought to". It can help you sort through interpretations which seem plausible to you. However, whether or not you find them plausible in the first place, or end up believing them to be true or false, is dictated by a process over which reason has no domain. What action or change you feel ought to be affected from that belief is also outside of the jurisdiction of reason.
I take the duality of consciousness and unconsciousness as a premise because my experience seems to suggest it
You've already told me that you have no idea what consciousness is, so how is it that experience can suggest the existence of an entity you have no clear knowledge of?
Moreover, how can experience suggest anything? You have experienced a plethora of perceptions throughout the course of your life, but how can this in itself lead to the belief in something beyond the immediately observed? Logic certainly cannot take you the extra step, nor can the act of experiencing in itself. We are simply hard-wired to draw connections between the objects of our perceptions, particularly after we have observed them behave in a particular manner repeatedly.
But unless you can put some substance behind the terms "conscious" or "unconscious", I find it hard to believe that you have ever truly perceived such things. The terms themselves I believe are colored by centuries of rationalist misinterpretation, as well as the more recent Freudian elements.
As for your friend, she was obviously motivated to take the action that she did. As a result of that action, she experienced something that altered her beliefs and her understanding of the world; moreover, it motivated her to make certain changes. I don't understand the controversy here; if she did something it was because she was motivated to do it.
How could it be otherwise? How can someone take any action that they are not motivated to take? Short of having someone else physically moving my limbs against my will, it simply seems impossible to me that such an action could occur. Even in that case, I'm not really taking action, someone else is taking action and making use of my body.
I'll agree that the mind does what it does--but I'll also say that whatever is really going on, empirical investigations show correlation, if not causation, between acts of teaching and acts of learning. It's not a perfect correlation, and perhaps further investigations will reveal more.
You yourself have affected my conscious states by typing to me.
You also may be interested that I find consciousness to probably be an emmergent property, in this case unobservable and only inferable. I infer consciousness because of awareness, I infer awareness because I infer an external world, and of course these acts of "inference" may be tremendously more complex than I believe them to be.
However, the very fact that my own mental processes may not be "as I believe them to be" suggests to me that there is something going on external to my awareness and to my beliefs.
All of the complexity and mystery that I remember having experienced is correlated with a difficulty, at least in this moment, in accepting the claim that you understand how moralities arise. I find your theory nice enough, but something would have to give me the experience of people doing what you suggest they do, the experience that those actions lead to morality, and the experience that they aren't doing anything else to influence morality, in order for me to have this experience of acceptance, or at least so I have the experience of believing.
Instead of all of this skepticism, I'd rather just take what experiences, beliefs, and/r premises come along and life will change them as it see fits.
And by "life" I also include my own "actions." Recently, I've found definite changes in my mental states and in my actions resultant from acts of "willing." By deciding not to try to act according to certain carefully defined mental models, and instead to aim at a goal and ask myself to reach it, instead of considering every step, I have been more successful, at least in certain circumstances. It is my belief that this success results from changes in that complex stuff of which I am not aware that occur after my act of "willing," of which I am aware.
I also recommend these acts of wiling to others, as when I told someone with aspergers, who had remarked on changes in my personality since he had last seen me, that I had "stopped trying to make unconscious processes conscious." He liked this idea, as this is what he said he had been trying, and failing, to do.
So, from now on I'll write as I write, without the skeptical hemming and hawing. Feel free, however, to try and change my premises, beliefs, etc, as I will certainly try to change yours.
I honestly didn't find much in your comments to object to, except that I observe people being concerned both with what people will do and with the end results of peoples actions, at least as it affects their world, however they define it. Certain people, like myself, become concerned with the "ultimate" consequences of things, strongly correlated with exposure to certain western philosophies and/or certain western religions.
For example, it just seems utterly . . . ignorant . . . to me that people like to debate causality when trying to determine responsibility. Of course a person might have "done differently" if circumstances had been different! they weren't.
I define a crime as an act which we outlaw because not doing so would cause consequential harm or stop a consequential good that I consider necessary. I think that considerations of causality may influence our legal system in a "good way" but I'd be open to alternatives.
My own morality is focused on fully being oneself in a way that one fully values oneself. I like this because I notice that I am a complex being with sometimes competing impulses and that these impulses change over time. Considering the harm or good that my actions will do, I don't want to be tied down completely to what I find harmful or good now, but may not ten years from now.
I'd find it weird to commit myself to certain standards now, occupying myself with a set path that I might reject later, especially when those standards only come from who I am now, and not from objective external source.
So I look to my personality--those aspects of my experiensce of myself which seem more fixed, but may or may not be frequently translated into action and/or frequently occupy my mind--to be a general boundary on my personal "growth" and I, in theory, encourage other people to do so as well. I do this out of a hope that as people allow themselves to be more complex and divided, they will compromise with me more easily. If I didn't have empathy, I might not care about compromising with them, instead, perhaps, I'd try and eliminate them.
empirical investigations show correlation, if not causation, between acts of teaching and acts of learning.
This seems rather against your concept of willing, doesn't it? This goes more in line of my description of motive--people change, or learn in this case, because something motivates them to.
However, the very fact that my own mental processes may not be "as I believe them to be" suggests to me that there is something going on external to my awareness and to my beliefs.
I'm not sure where logic fits into this argument at this point (of if you even intended it to have a place right now) but I would just like to say (like a broken record) that logic does not suggest anything, either in this case, nor even would it suggest the correlation between teaching and learning quoted above.
The only one who can decide that anything suggests anything is you; no logic will do it for you.
I honestly didn't find much in your comments to object to, except that I observe people being concerned both with what people will do and with the end results of peoples actions, at least as it affects their world, however they define it. Certain people, like myself, become concerned with the "ultimate" consequences of things, strongly correlated with exposure to certain western philosophies and/or certain western religions.
In practice, however, I believe that my position will always be correct. Of course people don't want certain things to happen--death or financial disastor or what have you--but the only way these ends can be mostly avoided is if we accurately assess the character of the people we associate with. In the end, we feel morally repulsed by the actions of a murderer because of the kind of person you have to be to perpetrate such a thing; and if it was someone close to us, it is that much worse for us not having realized they were what they were.
So I look to my personality--those aspects of my experiensce of myself which seem more fixed, but may or may not be frequently translated into action and/or frequently occupy my mind--to be a general boundary on my personal "growth" and I, in theory, encourage other people to do so as well.
Forgive me, but isn't this a given? Aren't we always limited to our personality/experiences, no matter what we may believe?
I suppose what you might be saying is that we should accept that that is the case. If so, then I would certainly agree.
Maybe we difer as to what we mean by logic-- to me logic is a set of rules communicated through a historical-discourse, derived ultimatly from patterns in our thought. We categorize it as "logic" because that's the name we give to these rules or habits. It seems to me that you've been using "logic" all along? Am I wrong?
oh, and I never intended to advocate the opinion that conscious actions arise from nothing, or that will isn't based in personality, etc. I simply was describing my experience of things, which is where whatever patterns my consciousness and yet is beyond my awareness seems to change with my consious actions, as revealed by changes in what I am aware of.
I confess to finding nothing to disagree with in those comments :)
Here's an interesting question for you--what happens to discourse when the discussants have a similarly "weak" standard of certainty?
Depends on the character of the people involved. In a disagreement, they may grow frustrated and not want to discuss it any further. Conversely, since they require no extra information to feel certain about their point of view, they may want to go at it for a while. You know, because they feel like the other person should agree with what is the obvious truth.
For myself, I find discussion (particularly with people with whom I disagree) tends to help me find places where I ought to do further reading. It also helps me to clarify and focus my thoughts.
What do you think?
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